Debate with Evie

Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:50:52 PM): Hey, i went to a lecture thing at church tonight
Blace (3/26/2008 10:51:04 PM): what about?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:51:09 PM): the dude had some questions that he asked and then explained later
Blace (3/26/2008 10:51:19 PM): on...?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:51:30 PM): mostly about refuting atheism and scientism and the belief that there is no soul,
Blace (3/26/2008 10:51:37 PM): ah
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:51:41 PM): that man is pure scientific, etc
Blace (3/26/2008 10:51:42 PM): cool
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:51:59 PM): and his stuff was mostly free of biblical dependency, too
Blace (3/26/2008 10:52:16 PM): whoever says that man is a purly logical being never met me
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:52:47 PM): here, il ask some questions i wrote down
Blace (3/26/2008 10:53:00 PM): ok..
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:53:23 PM): Fill in the blank: the heart pumps blood; the stomach digests; the brain ________.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:53:29 PM): first thought
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:53:41 PM): first thing that pops into your head
Blace (3/26/2008 10:53:44 PM): thinks...
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:53:51 PM): but NO!
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:54:02 PM): That's a Physicalist answer
Blace (3/26/2008 10:54:14 PM): preforms electrical signals and stuff
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:54:17 PM): you see, the MIND thinks... the brain just commands the body
Blace (3/26/2008 10:54:23 PM): body movement
Blace (3/26/2008 10:54:36 PM): but the mind is a part of the brain
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:54:46 PM): no, its a part of the soul
Blace (3/26/2008 10:54:50 PM): psysically there is no dif
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:54:57 PM): oh?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:55:04 PM): Think a vegetative state.
Blace (3/26/2008 10:55:04 PM): and were begging the question
Blace (3/26/2008 10:55:08 PM): ok
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:55:09 PM): Brain is shut down
Blace (3/26/2008 10:55:19 PM): true
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:55:28 PM): But is the mind shut down?
Blace (3/26/2008 10:55:45 PM): if the patient is comatose... its asleep
Blace (3/26/2008 10:55:52 PM): and its a section of the brain
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:56:16 PM): Is it?
Blace (3/26/2008 10:56:26 PM): people can lose thier brain and retain thier mind... like vegetative state
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:56:41 PM): When a person has alzheimer's, is their brain dysfunctional or is their mind?
Blace (3/26/2008 10:57:11 PM): and lose thier mind and retain their brain -- retarded people people with amnsia or alhiemers.. people with split personality
Blace (3/26/2008 10:57:33 PM): thier brain is thier mind in that case
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:57:41 PM): The brain is physical.
Blace (3/26/2008 10:57:49 PM): yes
Blace (3/26/2008 10:58:06 PM): the mind is mental, but mental is a form of pysical
Blace (3/26/2008 10:58:11 PM): electrical signals
Mariel G (3/26/2008 10:58:38 PM): Well let's clarify mental
Blace (3/26/2008 10:58:55 PM): having to do with the mind... begging the question
Blace (3/26/2008 10:59:23 PM): i think we might be having equivocation on mind
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:00:39 PM): Well let's assume a person's mind is their brain, or at least a part of it
Blace (3/26/2008 11:00:50 PM): ok
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:00:57 PM): When that person dies, what happens?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:01:03 PM): thus it is a phusical component of the body
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:01:10 PM): their mind stays on earth, decays, and becomes the ground?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:01:33 PM): yes, or to put it in the shorter term, stops sending signals
Blace (3/26/2008 11:01:41 PM): like all other body parts
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:01:46 PM): So when we're in heaven, how do we think?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:02:01 PM): given new body
Blace (3/26/2008 11:02:12 PM): but were begging the question again
Blace (3/26/2008 11:02:24 PM): we need to avoid biblical reliance
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:03:07 PM): But if it's our mind on earth that's realized that the soul is tainted by sin, then does the new mind in heaven realize this, too?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:03:31 PM): translation...
Blace (3/26/2008 11:03:35 PM): but again
Blace (3/26/2008 11:03:45 PM): avoid biblical reliance
Blace (3/26/2008 11:04:41 PM): atheists think that the mind think that the soul exists and is tainted by sin... they also think were wrong with niether able to prove the other right
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:05:44 PM): wait... so what exactly are we debating here?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:06:02 PM): mind exists, mind is physical, what?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:06:22 PM): can we prove that man goes beyond physical
Blace (3/26/2008 11:06:32 PM): do we have a soul.. ect
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:06:36 PM): ok
Blace (3/26/2008 11:07:13 PM): we can assume that the mind is the part of the brain that stores who we are and our memories, as opposed to contoling out bodies
Blace (3/26/2008 11:07:41 PM): psyically, i have no clue where on our brain that is,
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:08:03 PM): Ah, but mind is not part of brain
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:08:07 PM): mind is part of soul
Blace (3/26/2008 11:08:15 PM): ok then
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:08:17 PM): mind and brain communicate
Blace (3/26/2008 11:08:42 PM): ok then... how do we know this... i mean with nonbiblical evidence?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:09:06 PM): how do we know that the mind is part of the soul, or how do we know that the soul exists?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:09:17 PM): both
Blace (3/26/2008 11:09:26 PM): but we can start with the latter
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:09:38 PM): kk thats wat i was gonna suggest
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:10:33 PM): ok so if there was no soul, then all knowledge, all experience, everything we remember, etc is gained thru the 5 senses
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:10:37 PM): correct?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:10:55 PM): yes, as well as reason
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:11:01 PM): ok
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:11:22 PM): So let's try something here.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:11:28 PM): Prove that you exist.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:11:37 PM): How do you know that you exist?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:12:11 PM): youve seen me, ive spoken to you, weve high fived, several times
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:12:13 PM): You can see yourself, smell yourself, touch yourself, taste yourself, hear yourself.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:12:29 PM): true
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:12:31 PM): But say that you were blind, deaf, paralyzed, couldn't smell, couldn't taste.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:12:37 PM): nothing worked
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:12:48 PM): Then how would you know you existed?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:12:49 PM): we have only reason
Blace (3/26/2008 11:13:01 PM): i think therefore i am
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:13:37 PM): And when you say to yourself, "I think, therefore I am," you know you exist.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:13:42 PM): people with no senses can make that assumption, they dont because they have never learned, but thay can
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:13:54 PM): This is independent of scientific proof or disproof
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:14:06 PM): You know you are a living, active, self-cousious being.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:14:12 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:14:37 PM): You have moral experience; reason
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:14:41 PM): Why?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:14:44 PM): Is this physical?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:15:03 PM): and if a person in a vegetative state can know that they are real, they do not have the logical ability, but they can
Blace (3/26/2008 11:15:19 PM): the brain doubt, therefore it thinks
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:15:35 PM): First prove the brain doubts
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:15:48 PM): More logically, the mind doubts, therefore it thinks
Blace (3/26/2008 11:16:03 PM): the fact that you are contradicting me
Blace (3/26/2008 11:16:14 PM): the mind part of the brain is doubting
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:16:17 PM): i was just correcting
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:16:39 PM): But back to the existence of soul
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:17:07 PM): According to Scientism, "I" = Brain.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:17:16 PM): and Brain = Neural network
Blace (3/26/2008 11:17:21 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:17:29 PM): So I= neural network
Blace (3/26/2008 11:17:35 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:17:38 PM): correct?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:17:47 PM): they believe they are a complicated computer program
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:17:57 PM): With logic
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:18:00 PM): and reasoning
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:18:06 PM): and.... emotions?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:18:11 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:18:12 PM): but how do emotions fit in?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:18:30 PM): emotions are chemicals in the brain that cause physical sensations
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:18:34 PM): And a person's personal likes/dislikes.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:18:48 PM): Pre to Pecan over Almond
Blace (3/26/2008 11:18:55 PM): likes and dislikes are desicions based on memories
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:19:09 PM): but what about newborn babies?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:19:15 PM): memories are neural network
Blace (3/26/2008 11:19:26 PM): newborns still have the chemicals
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:19:36 PM): so memories are pre-wired?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:19:53 PM): what do u mean by that?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:20:35 PM): Well if memories are a neural network, one that babies have when they're born, does that mean that memories are artificial, pre-programed?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:21:23 PM): those that are not pre programmed are programmed later as a result of experinces
Blace (3/26/2008 11:21:35 PM): as well as other traits
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:21:47 PM): but babies are born with artificial memories.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:21:58 PM): i was born with aspergers, which affected my taste in food
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:22:04 PM): is that a memory?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:22:09 PM): no
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:22:14 PM): then red herring
Blace (3/26/2008 11:22:19 PM): but how do babies have memories
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:22:29 PM): that's my point- they don't.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:22:51 PM): but if likes/dislikes are the result of memories, how do babies have them?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:23:04 PM): psysical traits
Blace (3/26/2008 11:23:15 PM): i was born with aspergers, which affected my likes/dislikes in food
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:23:52 PM): but you said before that likes/dislikes were the result of past experiences
Blace (3/26/2008 11:24:20 PM): experiences are dictated by physical traits and background
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:24:57 PM): So I'm experiencing sitting in this chair because of my physical traits and background?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:25:14 PM): Because I've lived [where I have] my whole life and was born with brown hair?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:25:57 PM): and because you were born into a fam that had a comp and a chair
Blace (3/26/2008 11:26:10 PM): you chose to attend crown, therefore met me
Blace (3/26/2008 11:26:16 PM): you chose to get a laptop
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:28:00 PM): All right then. experiences are dictated by the choices one makes and one's genes and environment.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:28:08 PM): its a chain reaction our physical traits and background affect our taste, thus our choises, thus our experiences, thus our memories, thus out choices ect
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:28:09 PM): Like we learned in bio...
Blace (3/26/2008 11:28:39 PM): remember in calvin and hobbes when they went down the hill?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:28:40 PM): But go back to the "our memories thus our choices."
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:29:06 PM): How does a person with amnesia make choices?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:29:09 PM): our memories affect our interpretations of our world
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:29:14 PM): they wake up.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:29:20 PM): first thing they do: a choice.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:29:24 PM): because of what remains of thier mind
Blace (3/26/2008 11:29:29 PM): they dont lose it all
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:29:34 PM): Assuming they do
Blace (3/26/2008 11:29:54 PM): then they die, or else gain a completely new personality
Blace (3/26/2008 11:30:08 PM): as a result of our choices
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:30:09 PM): assuming they don't die
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:30:13 PM): first thing they do when they wake up
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:30:20 PM): how do they make a choice without any memory?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:30:52 PM): jason borne -- lost his memory as an assasin, became a new man when he woke up
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:31:02 PM): not answering question
Blace (3/26/2008 11:31:11 PM): they gain memory instantly
Blace (3/26/2008 11:31:15 PM): just be looking up
Blace (3/26/2008 11:31:19 PM): by what others do
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:31:41 PM): nah, first thing.
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:31:43 PM): opening eyes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:31:49 PM): that choice.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:32:05 PM): because thats a natrual preprogrammed responce...
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:32:12 PM): so not a memory?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:32:18 PM): debatably an involentry action
Blace (3/26/2008 11:32:56 PM): not a memory, a part of the other part of the brain that we dont consider in the brainmind. still neural nework, just a different one
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:33:32 PM): so before when you said that memories affect our choices....there were, of course, exceptions.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:34:04 PM): memories are one of many facotrs
Blace (3/26/2008 11:34:18 PM): memories, prewiring, ect
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:34:33 PM): would logic, reason, and impulse be some of these factors?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:34:40 PM): its a chain, a loop, but not a simple one
Blace (3/26/2008 11:34:48 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:34:58 PM): Ok, now logic and reason you can preprogram
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:35:07 PM): but impulse, you can't.
Blace (3/26/2008 11:35:31 PM): impulse is not random, just hard to controll
Blace (3/26/2008 11:35:44 PM): like flipping a coin
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:36:11 PM): impulse is often based on the actions of others
Blace (3/26/2008 11:36:21 PM): if you started the coin in the same position, on the same thumb with the same strenght at the sem speed it would land in the same place every time and on the same face
Blace (3/26/2008 11:36:47 PM): we dont have the ability to controll thing to that minutity
Blace (3/26/2008 11:37:09 PM): thus its "random"
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:37:33 PM): But often based on reactions to surroundings, others' choices, etc?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:37:36 PM): its similar, but more complex, with impulse
Blace (3/26/2008 11:37:43 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:38:35 PM): So the baby's brain is preprogramed with impulses: "On dec. 7, 1941, 12:14:36, duck."
Blace (3/26/2008 11:38:44 PM): no
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:38:45 PM): correct?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:38:48 PM): why not?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:39:03 PM): because it all calculates on the moment
Blace (3/26/2008 11:39:34 PM): all the factors dont add up into the impulse until the event involved
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:40:08 PM): but, when it all boils down, a person's life is pre-programed
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:40:21 PM): because everyone else's life is pre-programmed
Blace (3/26/2008 11:40:49 PM): yes, but that preprogram is beyond anyones contoll because of minute details
Blace (3/26/2008 11:41:05 PM): as well as unknown factors
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:41:06 PM): and their actions, all based on one another, are based on other actions, etc. etc., which are based on logic, which is based on traits and experiences
Blace (3/26/2008 11:41:13 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:41:17 PM): unknowns?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:41:21 PM): such as?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:41:57 PM): i dont know what ian is doing now... if i did, then its possible i would be doing something different
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:42:25 PM): but you don't know because he's not there, and he's not there because he's doing something else, which is because of other things...
Blace (3/26/2008 11:42:31 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:42:33 PM): it's all one giant chain reaction, right?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:42:37 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:42:49 PM): Which, strangely, totally depletes the idea of free will
Blace (3/26/2008 11:43:03 PM): in a way... yes
Blace (3/26/2008 11:43:14 PM): but this is from an atheist perspective
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:43:25 PM): so people are not to be held accountable for their actions?
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:43:50 PM): it's all fate, the fault of that very first human being (sans biblical res).
Blace (3/26/2008 11:44:42 PM): devils advocate argument: the reason people should be held accountable is if they are, they will preform actions differently
Blace (3/26/2008 11:44:59 PM): you would be swearing if your parents didnt have rules against it
Blace (3/26/2008 11:45:02 PM): or the bible
Blace (3/26/2008 11:45:21 PM): the reason you dont is cause you learned that rule
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:45:27 PM): but i'm not, because they don't, because they were raised that way, because... because... because...
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:45:49 PM): chain reaction, i'm not swearing because that first person made that first choice that set it off
Blace (3/26/2008 11:46:23 PM): the reason people should be held accountable for negative actions is that it causes them to not preform negative actions
Blace (3/26/2008 11:46:37 PM): i dont kill cause i dont want to go to jail
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:47:41 PM): and the law that says you would go to jail was set in place because someone thought it was a good idea, because their reason and logic told them so, because they had experienced and drew conclusions, because.... because.... and it all goes back to the chain
Blace (3/26/2008 11:47:56 PM): yes
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:48:05 PM): So we're all robots?
Blace (3/26/2008 11:48:13 PM): so, according to an attheist, we are robots
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:48:28 PM): apparently so
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:48:40 PM): my, but this is an interesting conversation
Blace (3/26/2008 11:48:49 PM): but we know differently because we have heard other arguments in favor of christ
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:48:57 PM): Hooray!
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:49:11 PM): Which bring in that there is a soul
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:49:23 PM): and that this soul is created in the image of God
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:49:30 PM): and that this image includes free will
Blace (3/26/2008 11:49:40 PM): also fits the bill
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:49:43 PM): as well as logic and reason
Blace (3/26/2008 11:49:58 PM): we made the robot assuption from a no god assuption
Blace (3/26/2008 11:50:11 PM): if we make the reverse, then soul MUST exist
Mariel G (3/26/2008 11:50:36 PM): quite so
Blace (3/26/2008 11:50:52 PM): so it all depend on the assumption

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